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As a proponent of the “marathon stroke,” I’m surprised how little I see it used — or modifications of it, anyway — in recreational circles.
It’s effecient, it’s not hard to learn, it’s easier on the body than stroking away on one side for long stretches, and it avoids the soft-tissue stresses of steering, yet …
Is it a matter of how people learned to canoe (or didn’t) intially that keeps them from hutting frequently, shortening their strokes, using a bent-shaft, and leaving the steering for the drive home?
Charlie, I was re-reading Toward Magnetic North and Sleeping Island. Oberholtzer writes about the Chipewyans switching sides every 3 strokes. It sounds like they paused a bit between strokes – but something similar to Marathon stroking.
We had a very experienced paddler tell us we would be chopping our wooden bent shaft paddles into kindling after they broke 2 weeks into our trip this summer. I didn’t bother to explain one of those paddles already had over 3,000 miles on it.
What I am really surprised at is (and not to hijack this thread) is that not more people are using double bladed paddles (kayak paddles) in canoes.
Soloing (in a tandem boat) I can achieve speeds of upwards to 9kph (GPS confirmed) while my average speed of 6-7kph is one I can maintain all day. Even when I am in a very leisure mode, heck I could be relaxing and enjoying a beverage between strokes, and still be cruising at 3-4kph (which is your average canoe paddling speed). When I tandem with my buddy double blading in the bow, 8-9 kph is our average, while we’ve GPS clocked our selves at 11.6kph for a quick and short lived dash.
I know, speed is not everything. But double blading is also more stable in rough water. And Speaking of efficiency, you can’t beat it. It’s less fatiguing, and in terms of muscle straining, it’s bilaterally equal making it better and easier on your back.
I have been doing it for years, always get the stares and questions – especially as I pass them – it’s the ever familiar trip fatigue look of “god I wish I had a motor right now” look turns into “hey, now that ‘s a great idea, I wish I had a kayak paddle right now” look.
But I still don’t see it as often as I would suspect. Especially with the sea-kayak generation, that’s how we crossed over. Started as canoers. Became avid sea-kayakers. Then rediscovered canoing but crossed it over with the paddle, and would never consider any other way again. Literally the best of both worlds. Nothing like packing a canoe vs the frustrating packing of a kayak.
thanks for letting me post here, nice site.
I’m wondering…do you carry a single blade with you on your trips? What happens when you hit whitewater? I will often resort to a switch style of paddling in strong head winds if i really want to make tracks, but i find in a fully loaded large tripping canoe, the switch is often cumbersome. I did play with the darkside for a season, had a small kayak, but traded it for beer. Think it might have been Busch or Miller, can’t rememebr, but even though it was American beer, i still think i got the better deal.
Nope, I used to carry a single blade as a back up. But because I only own one boat (a tandem) soloing it with a single is much too cumbersome.
As for WW, like I said in the other thread, I find a double blade to still be the easier choice.
Look, I started as a single blade canoer. Then got sea and WW kayaks. Loved them. But the packing was a pain. And portaging limited my trips to big open water. So on a lurk I crossed over and for all the benefits I stated previously, never looked back.
I should add that I paddle from the stern where I can achieve power, and maneuverability. Perhaps you were paddling in the middle? Which would be a bit more “cumbersome” as you stated with a fully loaded large canoe.
Also, I gotta add that there are so many style of kayaks, many more than there are differing styles of canoes. If American beer was a good trade, I suspect you had the “Sportspal” version of a kayak????? Which any canoer here will cringe at the very thought of a Sportspal canoe, and would tell you not to judge canoeing visa vie a Sportspal.
Anyway don’t get me wrong, I am not benefiting to change people’s paddle choices, I just think I found a good thing that I’d like to share.
Enjoy what ever you paddle, or paddle with.
I took a walk (paddle) on the Dark Side last weekend.
I think that I’m sort of like you Swift in that
@SWIFT 75 wrote:
Look, I started as a single blade canoer.
and,
Anyway don’t get me wrong, I am not benefiting to change people’s paddle choices, I just think I found a good thing that I’d like to share.
and,
Enjoy what ever you paddle, or paddle with.So I went to the Yak shop, told him what I was thinking, and tried a few blades for the weekend. On Sunday we had a real nasty day, lots of wind and drizzle. Definately not the kind of day you’d pick for a recreational paddle. So I thought that I’d better try out this idea of double blading in those conditions.
When I got to the put in, I had second thoughts. A few Muskie fishermen were coming off the lake and looked at me as though I were nuts. Like you Swift, I paddle a CII as a solo, but I sit/ kneel/ whatever right up against the center yoke where the boats center point is. I headed straight out into the wind and the first thing I noticed was the obvious effect that dipping the blade twice as often into the water has. O.K. you could paddle a single blade at a higher cadence sit and switch, but you get the idea. One half mile across the lake and I made a turn downwind, and I really began to sail. I was staying ahead of following waves at that point so the boat was easy to control. Following the shoreline two miles more or less, and another turn. This time with quartering winds off my port side. Because I was centered in the boat, weathercocking was not a problem. When I needed to because of wind direction, I slid forward or rearward a few inches to change the COG, and heeled over bringing the windward gunnel up. Exposing the bottom of the boat created lift, and paddling was almost effortless. I found that I didn’t really ‘need’ port side strokes for maneuvering, but maintained them for cadence and rythym. Mostly I just barely dipped the blade into the water on port strokes. Turning once more, this time into the wind again, I was once again amazed at the forward progress that I made. While I certainly felt the workout that the wind was giving me, I was surprised at how fast the shoreline was passing by.
When I got back to the put in, I was rung out…..tired, but very impressed with the possibilities. I paddle this piece of water 3 or 4 times a week for enjoyment and conditioning, but I have to say that this was a very different experience, and in spite of the weather, I did it in much less time.
Oh, one more thing. It was a wetter ride. A much wetter ride. And not just because it was drizzling and windy. The water coming off of the blades dropped mostly into the boat, and since I kneel, I was soaked. The blade had drip rings, but I suspect that I may have been taking longer strokes than many yakkers. So my technique needs work, but that would bring the ‘top or forward blade’ inside and over the open hull where much of the water was released. I think that another issue is that when using the double yak blade with a wider canoe-my midship beam is 34 inches- and sitting up higher than you would in a yak, you have a higher paddling angle, so that shaft collects and dumps water differently.
Anyway, long story short. I will get a double blade to use at times. In the right setting, it could be very useful.
Now comes the problem. Which one? Boy, that Lendal Kinetik feels good. :rolleyes:
pake
I’m not going to touch the kayak paddle idea. It has proponents, and that’s fine.
Charlie, I suspect you see few people using a marathon stroke, because most people don’t have the cardio to drive a stroke rate fast enough to paddle that way. In addition, most canoeists that I meet don’t want to paddle that hard when canoeing. I’ve almost exclusively switched to a carbon Zav for tripping with a marathon stroke rate. When your pushing 25-30 lake miles a day plus another 1.5-2 miles a day porting and then working in down-days for big wind up on the big lakes in Canada, you need to make tracks!!! I know there are lots of folks that use Northwoods style strokes for covering distance, but for me, the fast cadence marathon stroke is the way to go on two plus week wilderness trips.
PK
Just so I’m on the same page, Marathon Stroke is a side switching deal?
I’m rarely in such a hurry.
Most of the people I paddle with are married to one side for paddling. Luckily I’m mostly ambidextrous when it comes to this.Paddles breaking? Only if they’re cheap to begin with.
@Preacher 131 wrote:
Just so I’m on the same page, Marathon Stroke is a side switching deal?
Essentially, it’s the combination of a fast cadence, short stroke, and switching sides to correct as opposed to doing correction strokes.
Yeah you’re on the right page…
PK
Glade you had a positive experience Pake.
It is definitely a wetter ride, but that’s not always a bad thing (though it definitely can be a bad thing if you’re already getting wet by the ran). But when it’s hot it actually can be refreshing to get a little misting.
Most times I paddle in the stern (even soloing) I just trim (or adjust my gear accordingly). I find this way more comfortable, leisure, and even drier as you don’t have to bring the paddle up as high when switching sides.
pknoerr, thanks for redirecting this thread back to the original question of marathoning. I have been feeling kind of bad that I hijacked it a bit. But as justification, I initially thought it was still in the same water as the original question, and that someone would answer it more directly shortly, which you did, thanks.
I dont like bentshafts for tripping.
The angle is all wrong as it was designed for the sitting paddler. I kneel, especially solo( dont get me started on them tractor seets).
I find that I can keep an arrow straight line with the canoe with a Canadian stroke at about 50-60 strokes a minute with no switching…straight blade.
Bents seem to be a Midwestern go straight thing.. as are Wenonah canoes. There are of course racing circles who use Zavs with their Old Town Trippers (how is zat for a combo)..
The ultimate speed stroke is a Northwoods stroke and I havent found that used in the Midwest either…its a Canadian on steroids. Used quite a bit around here.
The other problem is that I drop paddles in the switch…and my husband refuses to switch… so its out for tandem…
I do use a double blade for my spare paddle, so that makes three maybe technically.
How does kneeling all day not get hard on your knees?
You get used to it.. Use a freestanding pad or really good glued in pads.
Getting started is the hardest. After a couple of weeks of working up to it I can spend eight hours kneeling in a boat. Its all about water time and for the occasional paddler it can be hard.
But for me canoeing is everyday excercise and I spend about an hour practicing (it should be more).
As for excercise Shawn Burke has written a techinical manual on training for paddling. Its quite specific and quite dedicated! He is a marathon racer and excercise physiologist. I am a cruiser! He can knock off with hit and switch some amazing distances but spends about five or six hours a day training. So it would seem that its not only the technique but the high level of fitness that makes it succeed.
I will try to find a source for Shawns manual.
@kayamedic 337 wrote:
I dont like bentshafts for tripping.
The angle is all wrong as it was designed for the sitting paddler. I kneel, especially solo( dont get me started on them tractor seets).
I think that’s a little misleading. The bent paddle was made to square the paddle between the knee and mid thigh while seated (mere most of the power is concentrated) because the seated paddler doesn’t have as much torso rotation to reach out as far forward as one would need with a straight shafted paddle to be square and vertical. When kneeling that torso rotation is once again available throughout the stroke regardless of whether you paddle with a bent or straight, so the paddler can easily get the paddle vertical whether straight or bent, the issue becomes not using too much rotation and putting the paddle into the water too flat at the beginning of the stroke, this is solved by keeping the stroke only in the vertical portion of the stroke. The key with paddling with a bent paddle isn’t that the angle is wrong for kneeling, it’s that it makes the paddle more right for sitting in a lower position in the canoe. When kneeling, that limitation is gone, so one need only use the portion of the available stroke that is vertical with the bent. As such the concept of paddling with a bent and straight on a bench seat in a tripping canoe works great!!!
PK
I challenge everyone to find out for himself or herself..we did this test at an ACA IDW and paddled a picnic table with bent and straight seated and kneeling on the table and yes there were some variations in different peoples body mechanics…( and some folks use no diving and no torso rotation)..the difference in approach angle was very apparant for the most part..Yes you can tweak both kinds of paddles to apply a force directly to the aft of the boat without lifting the water when sitting OR kneeling, but for most people that does not come naturally. They really have to rethink their stroke.
Bents are fine for tandem FS, kneeling because we do use a lot of torso rotation and a very slow cadence so we can tweak those angles..but its hard at a marathon paddle cadence.
I am totally unable to do a Canadian Stroke with a bent for some reason, though I can use a Sugar Island shape straight just fine.
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